Survey - FL Interest

[Nacreas]

Hey everyone,

Been a good while since I have spoken to a lot of you so I do hope you're all keeping well.

For those that still flick through the forums every now and then, you'd be well aware of the current state of FL.

I would be interested in knowing if there is genuine interest in giving the server another crack and for this reason, I am asking you to participate honestly in this survey.

What I would like to avoid is a management-bashing, pessimistic and non-constructive thread. There is nothing wrong with polite and constructive feedback and if anything I am sure suggestions would be welcomed about what you think could make things work, just be mindful of how you deliver your feedback.

If there's enough interest, perhaps we can explore options to assist FL's progression. I am certainly happy to help.

[Pollux]

We haven't given up yet which is why the forums and such are still up, as mentioned in the pulse we will have a meeting sometime this week to then write a post up which should be out before Christmas on what our next steps are going to be.

If FL does come back up, the experience will be different to what many older players remember and that might be something that'll disappoint some of you. While we all have different ideas on the best way to move forward, the truth is the server can not survive on players that have full time jobs and may only be able to join for a few hours a day at most. The majority of older players fall into this category, and therefore it isn't a group we can primarily cater towards. We have to cater towards those who do have all that free time we once did many years ago and for that to happen things must change to be more approachable. These changes are based on what other servers have and data collected from when many in the team joined on new accounts to test the new player experience back when the server was populated. I just want to be clear on this now to avoid any disappointment that it isn't going to be a quick nostalgia trip, as fun that would be we also know (and have seen) that it doesn't work for more than a few days.

That all being said, we're open to any suggestions on how we can best approach any relaunch especially given how much more is now possible with our core changes to the gamemode. The main focus is on any systems being extremely easy to understand (for example, avoiding a ton of obscure commands) and not having a reliance on a certain amount of players online for anything to be done (FL has always required a decent amount of players on before any RP can actually be done, things like the delivery job are critical in providing something to do before more players are online).

[Haarek]

(FL has always required a decent amount of players on before any RP can actually be done, things like the delivery job are critical in providing something to do before more players are online).

What you need to do is get your head out of your ass, reduce content size drastically, increase performance by sacrificing visuals, fix the economy and dramatically reduce the amount of rules and restrictions for players.

Once you have done these 5 things (And you should really focus on number 1), you can start talking about improving the gamemode and saving FL - I can tell you right now your ploy of making FL playable without people is ridiculous, sorry.

[Pollux]

(FL has always required a decent amount of players on before any RP can actually be done, things like the delivery job are critical in providing something to do before more players are online).

What you need to do is get your head out of your ass, reduce content size drastically, increase performance by sacrificing visuals, fix the economy and dramatically reduce the amount of rules and restrictions for players.

Once you have done these 5 things (And you should really focus on number 1), you can start talking about improving the gamemode and saving FL - I can tell you right now your ploy of making FL playable without people is ridiculous, sorry.

We're not focusing on things like the new player experience and player count because we randomly thought of it, we know they're the biggest gamemode related issues because we have data suggesting they are.

We track how long players play for and to some extent can see what they do, and we've known for many years FL has a terrible player retention rate but didn't do anything because the player count was "good enough" and because it requires a significant amount of work to fix. There is a lot of competition within gmod now, if something isn't clear to a new player they will just disconnect and go to the next. It's one of the biggest issues, so it makes sense that we prioritise it especially with how much work is involved.

FL has also always required a critical mass of players before anything can really happen, anyone who joins before this usually does so to wait for more players to join and will leave if that doesn't happen soon after. This can end up in many waiting for more to connect before joining themselves, and is a very big issue if enough are doing the same. If there's more to do that doesn't involve having 40+ people online, then more people will connect at lower player counts which leads to a nice snowball. This isn't about removing the need for player interaction entirely, it's just adding an alternative option for when that isn't possible. Jobs such as merchant roles require player interaction, and are some of the least played roles due to how boring it is without many players online. We know most players find these jobs extremely boring, so they're an obvious target due to how essential they are to have a functional economy. We're changing a lot of related features anyway, so it makes sense to throw this in alongside that.

Performance is something that has continuously improved, just as an example the previous relaunch in spring was significantly better performance wise than before due to optimisation work we did. This has improved even more since so I don't expect it to be a major issue. It'll never be perfect on a full server (I don't think any gmod server is when full), but it should still be playable. Performance isn't really a thing you just "have" in any game anyway, it's always a compromise and many players would rather have the significant usage of vehicles and player dupes we have than perfect performance.

Our content size appears to be similar to other similar servers, this makes sense considering internet speeds are a lot quicker than they were even a few years ago. Reducing content will also break many existing dupes which is something many of players care a lot about. I'm not aware of any research done to see how long most people will wait to join, however, FLs content only takes roughly 10 minutes (likely even less now, this was done years ago) on an average internet connection which seems acceptable given how other servers are around the same number.

Your first point is somewhat valid, it has been a long time now and we still have a lot of work to do. Can't really do much to change that though. We also know the economy needs changes, we've already done a lot with the previous economy overhaul and there is more that can be done to build on that further.

We can't just do everything though which is why we have to prioritise things. We can't just do things based on random ideas and speculation because that's partly why we're even in this mess to begin with, it's much safer for us to go for things we know are likely to have the biggest impact - at least for now while FL is in its current state. Gamemode changes also aren't the only things being done, they're just the things I know the most about as I am primarily a developer.

[Ludo]

Hurry up already, I wanna grow my watermelons for 3 hours straight and not talk to anyone the whole time 

[L Y N C H Y]

Id give it a go, in all fairness im ready to try something different FL was always fun, but maybe it is time for a change it wont survive off how it use to be, worth a shot at trying something new and if it doesn't work its not that big of a deal. Most have got use to FL not being around anymore anyways.

[Haarek]

Jobs such as merchant roles require player interaction, and are some of the least played roles due to how boring it is without many players online.

It's a misconception to believe that increasing the number of players online will inherently make roles like the merchant more enjoyable. The way of improving such roles is not in the increase of the player base, but in refining and improving the mechanics of the job itself. An example would be introducing physical shipments.

Listen Pollux, you need to get people who understand the gamemode to help you make the changes that will actually work. You need people who come with a well rounded understanding of the gamemode and aren´t scared to tell you to fuck off and that your ideas are dog shit. But if I know you well you aren´t the person to surround yourself with such healthy company.

You mention yourself you can't be making decisions based on random ideas and speculation - but I have a feeling that is exactly what you still are doing.

[Pollux]

Jobs such as merchant roles require player interaction, and are some of the least played roles due to how boring it is without many players online.

It's a misconception to believe that increasing the number of players online will inherently make roles like the merchant more enjoyable. The way of improving such roles is not in the increase of the player base, but in refining and improving the mechanics of the job itself. An example would be introducing physical shipments.

Listen Pollux, you need to get people who understand the gamemode to help you make the changes that will actually work. You need people who come with a well rounded understanding of the gamemode and aren´t scared to tell you to fuck off and that your ideas are dog shit. But if I know you well you aren´t the person to surround yourself with such healthy company.

You mention yourself you can't be making decisions based on random ideas and speculation - but I have a feeling that is exactly what you still are doing.

I never said any of that? What I mentioned was the problem, not a solution. You are correct that increasing the number of players online doesn't solve the issue with merchants, but are incorrect in thinking that is what I said. The solution to merchant roles is to increase the scope of their jobs so they can do things that isn't just "sit in a shop and maybe press F1 -> Market to sell something once in a while". These things cruically need to not entirely rely on very occasional player interaction in order to be sustainable. Exactly how it works depends on each job, but as an example chefs could sell food to NPCs and players via a food deliveries with the new cooking system when there isn't anyone in their restaurant. The cooking system also then adds a lot more depth to an otherwise boring role, as it's much more fun than just buying stuff from the market and giving it to someone else. While in the past players enjoyed roleplaying that part, that isn't the case anymore and hasn't been for some time. This applies to a lot of the gamemode, we can't rely on players making things "fun" themselves as they once used to, we have to make the actual gamemode fun and make it flexible so people can still be more creative if they want to.

The issue has never been that we're not capable of thinking of solutions. It's extremely easy to come up with some good ideas, literally anyone with just a few hours on the server can do that. The hard part is actually implementing these solutions and having to make the right compromises to do so. That's the part FL has always struggled with and one that unfortunately not many can help with unless you're either also a developer with free time or are willing to spend thousands (not an exaggeration if you want something good) on paying external developers to do everything for you.

[Nacreas]

Apologies for the delayed reply, I have just returned from a weeks holiday.

Thank you for voting, it's nice to see that despite the general forum inactivity, there were still a few people interested.

I would really appreciate those that have expressed interest, and any of those that wish to, participate in further discussions about what we can do.

Please know, this is by no means an attempt to undermine management, but I do believe its everyone's responsibility to chip-in a bit. That's how community works.

Thanks again, and please keep an eye out for threads upcoming.

[Haarek]

This applies to a lot of the gamemode, we can't rely on players making things "fun" themselves as they once used to, we have to make the actual gamemode fun and make it flexible so people can still be more creative if they want to.
I 100% agree with this.

The issue has never been that we're not capable of thinking of solutions. It's extremely easy to come up with some good ideas

Obviously it's not, judging by the tirade of bad decisions that have been made in the past years. Coming up with good ideas is easy, but unfortunately it is equally as easy to come up with bad ones. Furthermore, it is clear that some ideas and implementations don't show their destructive nature until later down the line - the mining update (And later the farming update) is a clear example of that. Where these additional money making system completely destroyed the economy of the server over a longer time period.

As example, the farming update was a great idea but ultimately led to unforeseen consequences in the truest nature later down the line - suddenly we dramatically reduced the amount of player interaction needed to make a capital.

I think one of the most important aspects of the CityRP gamemode to understand, is that it is centered around criminality - which is paradoxical because it is fronted as a passiveRP server. Without criminal players the server simply doesn't go around - because the whole backbone and meta of the mode is built around making money through illegal money printers and weed - with a government that suppresses them, and merchants that capitalise off the power struggle.

This whole core gameplay aspect breaks down when you introduce passive ways of making money, because the need to be a criminal disappears if there are more efficient ways to make capital. What is the point of being a criminal then? Well, there isn't any. Which reduces the amount of criminals and in turn reduces the amount of customers for the merchants.

I think capturing this essence and meta of the gamemode is critical if you want to improve and populate the gamemode. And after this core aspect is solidified we can talk about improving the merchant roles further with - for example: shipments and finite weapon storage in the inventory - Because merchants increases player retention - new players gravitate towards it like moths.

In short, we don't want the criminal role-play to be simply a mediocre option - it needs to be the best option available to make money by far. Or else you are simply breaking down the meta of the gamemode.

The cooking system also then adds a lot more depth to an otherwise boring role, as it's much more fun than just buying stuff from the market and giving it to someone else.

So based on what I have written here, I think working on these things is a misunderstanding of the underlying issues the gamemode is facing. It is a great idea, don't get me wrong - but it´s not going to help FL´s current situation. You have to tackle the core issue first.