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+---- Thread: Grub again (/showthread.php?tid=61189)
RE: Grub again - yarrrs - 06-09-2015
(06-09-2015, 03:14 AM)Agorith Wrote:(06-09-2015, 02:56 AM)yarrrs Wrote: Got this out of the youtube video. http://puu.sh/ihObk/77309196a3.jpg
To whoever said there is a window, I see no window besides the one up top to the left,second floor, in which case I am not even arguing that there were people there. However you said you tested this and it was impossible to be shot there, and I proved you to be bullshitting that statement up, and noted you lying in the courthouse.
Please provide a better screenshot. It's way too blurry to make anything out of it.
You mean to tell me you can't see the blazingly obvious window that YOU ADMITTED TO EXIST there? C'mon you're teasing me at this point.
RE: Grub again - Grub - 06-09-2015
I'd actually like to back up and focus on a few things here.
First of all the rule states;
Doom forts are not allowed. This means you cannot make it hard for the opposing force to raid you. (ex: mazes, having to crouch or jump over props, small firing holes.)
Under the current rule of "Doomforting" the rule is not breached for a number of reasons. There is no mazes, you do not have to jump or crouch, and there was no firing holes to be seen within such a build. Now, stating the dupe is hard to raid, is not an answer. One molotov and or suppressing enemy would of rendered the build useless.
To go after what you said about cover, even though the doomfort rule doesn't explicitly state that you need to have cover for the enemy nor can you shoot at the person keypading, you did have enough time to heal yourself once you squished against the wall. It is also seen that there is a spray of bullets coming toward you, mostly hitting the wall, which seems like you either hard to see or actually behind cover.
[Image: jmamSVr.png]
[Image: ASDJzA3.png]
[Image: fIrxNRs.png]
And the real question I'd like to entertain, is why would you need cover for an attack trying to crack a keypad? Thats like a safety in tag and makes little to no sense since you are an attacker. Also, there is no breach of the rules with the currently build.
RE: Grub again - Enzyme - 06-09-2015
From what I've gathered so far:
(Note, I'll jump a bit back and forth between things I'm pointing out here so bear with)
The position the where the "cracker-person" is standing is covered, but it was vulnerable from a certain angle, something that appears it was not done on purpose as Theomenz says in the end of the video that he's going to have to push it in more. It's being claimed that this position was tested earlier and that the cracker wasn't vulnerable at the time during testing.
A comment in OOC suggests that the hit-box can be different for the gas-mask suit and that it can be the explanation for the cracker being vulnerable from the flank.
Quote:v33x [02:40:47] [FL:RP] Theomenz (STEAM_0:1:44576272) said: // The door has been pushed in a bit more. Apparently the gas mask model can be hit.
I wouldn't go as far as to claim that the position is impossible to crack at as you're able to use health-kits and heal up without being hit any more.
You're far from exposed, and I'd say it's a far cry to claim that it's a doom-fort because of the positioning of the keypad. Even if it was a doomfort at this time it doesn't seem to be intentional because of the remarks made by Theomenz that I've pointed out.
Quote:It appears in the screenshots however though that there is absolutely zero room for cover, not to mention Grub used the DJ platform as a firing platform. I remember hearing that firing platforms of anykind in a base were prohibited from use. I want clarification.
As I've pointed out above, I'd claim that there's cover as you're able to stand by the keypad while healing up without being hit any more.
I don't see the big issue that this shooting-platform is causing, especially considering that the new rules have allowed towers and walkways.
A keypad cannot be completely exposed, ie so that you have to turn your back to where they are shooting from so they can shoot you in the back whenever you try to crack. In this case, the cracker-position has enough cover and it's not totally exposed. The position offers enough cover that you're able to heal up without taking any more fire.
The elevated shooting-position can be easily suppressed and/or molotoved.
I wouldn't call it a doomfort as it's easily countered. The problem is simply that you didn't have enough attackers in the raid, and that's your fault, not the defenders.
To sum up my thoughts and notes so far:
The keypad isn't exposed too much, even with the exposed angle that wasn't ment to exist, something that was later countered by pushing the wall further in allowing for more cover.
Even with the exposed angle, you were able to heal up without taking further damage.
The elevated shooting-position is allowed, as towers and walkways are now allowed because of the new rules.
A doomfort is a base that's too hard to raid, a defence that gives the defenders too much of an advantage against the attackers.
I'd say that the failure that the attackers experienced was caused by lacking numbers and bad coordination. When the cracker was taking damage, attacker-person-2 could have suppressed the shooter who had the "flanking angle".
The base isn't a doomfort, you were just not prepared enough.
In a PM conversation between each-other, you acknowledge that you guys are going up against experienced and skilled shooters.
Spoiler :
I see no direct rule-breakage in the video so far.
The most questionable in the evidence (video) is that the keypad-cracker-person is actually vulnerable while cracking for a short period of time, but it's something that didn't appear to be deliberate and was apparently fixed afterwards.
Quote:Also, I witnessed Grub noclip invisible to his vehicle, then uninvis'd himself, unless of course he walks around his base invisible? I have no screenshot of him obviously before and after, however I want him to admit what he did.I don't see a RP situation going on that wouldn't allow Grub to unphase at that point. I do not know he was flying around the map for a quick check around or what, but from I can tell; he did not use his powers to interrupt a situation on purpose.
I personally do "patrols" around the server every now and then where I'll go phased and quickly check on players. There has been multiple occasions where I've used the "!gotov enzyme" afterwards, and this is just to make it easier to both administrate the server and RP for oneself. This is something I believe other staff-members do aswell. I don't see anything that would suggest this wasn't the case with Grub, but this isn't something that I know for sure.
Sum sum up:
2 players were going against 3 very experienced players who are in a defensive position. You didn't fail the raid because it was a doomfort, but because you were outnumbered and they had better positions than you.
Discussion about this
Spoiler :
Additional note: When replying to each-other, IF your reply or quote contains big pictures or long quotes then please put it in a spoiler so it doesn't take a full page.
RE: Grub again - yarrrs - 06-09-2015
(06-09-2015, 03:33 AM)Grub Wrote: I'd actually like to back up and focus on a few things here.
First of all the rule states;
Doom forts are not allowed. This means you cannot make it hard for the opposing force to raid you. (ex: mazes, having to crouch or jump over props, small firing holes.)
Under the current rule of "Doomforting" the rule is not breached for a number of reasons. There is no mazes, you do not have to jump or crouch, and there was no firing holes to be seen within such a build.
jarz: So those are the only 3 applications for what a doomfort is? Ok, I'll note that for the future, Grub.
Now, stating the dupe is hard to raid, is not an answer. One molotov and or suppressing enemy would of rendered the build useless.
jarz: Perhaps if Molotovs were not bugged (they are not able to be crafted.) we would use one. The video shows me suppresing the enemy, however when it's a 2v3, and the 3 have us in a fuckin' cage with no escape, it's hard to live. Let me see you survive such a doomfort.
To go after what you said about cover, even though the doomfort rule doesn't explicitly state that you need to have cover for the enemy nor can you shoot at the person keypading,
jarz: you act as if those couple examples are the ONLY doomfort applications. They're not, and you know it.
you did have enough time to heal yourself once you squished against the wall.
jarz: Yeah, I did. I was immediately shot afterward.
It is also seen that there is a spray of bullets coming toward you, mostly hitting the wall, which seems like you either hard to see or actually behind cover.
jarz: The video shows me in the deepest corner I could get into. I died.
[Image: jmamSVr.png]
[Image: ASDJzA3.png]
[Image: fIrxNRs.png]
And the real question I'd like to entertain, is why would you need cover for an attack trying to crack a keypad? Thats like a safety in tag and makes little to no sense since you are an attacker. Also, there is no breach of the rules with the currently build.\
jarz: Not what Enzyme said.
Also, the video finished.
RE: Grub again - Grub - 06-09-2015
[Image: 268x268.resizedimage]
Im beginning to get the understanding you don't know how hitboxes work.
[Image: Hit.png]
Each model has a specific hitbox which may be slightly different from another model.
A hitbox is an invisible box (or more often a series of boxes) which define the rough shape of a model for purposes of damage-based collision detection.
RE: Grub again - yarrrs - 06-09-2015
(06-09-2015, 04:06 AM)Grub Wrote: [Image: 268x268.resizedimage]
Im beginning to get the understanding you don't know how hitboxes work.
[Image: Hit.png]
Each model has a specific hitbox which may be slightly different from another model.
A hitbox is an invisible box (or more often a series of boxes) which define the rough shape of a model for purposes of damage-based collision detection.
Said hitbox instead of model, sorry.
RE: Grub again - yarrrs - 06-09-2015
(06-09-2015, 03:47 AM)Enzyme Wrote: From what I've gathered so far:
(Note, I'll jump a bit back and forth between things I'm pointing out here so bear with)
The position the where the "cracker-person" is standing is covered, but it was vulnerable from a certain angle, something that appears it was not done on purpose as Theomenz says in the end of the video that he's going to have to push it in more. It's being claimed that this position was tested earlier and that the cracker wasn't vulnerable at the time during testing.
Well I was obviously vulnerable. They indeed did move the door back a bit, however I am still able to be shot from that position.
A comment in OOC suggests that the hit-box can be different for the gas-mask suit and that it can be the explanation for the cracker being vulnerable from the flank.
Quote:v33x [02:40:47] [FL:RP] Theomenz (STEAM_0:1:44576272) said: // The door has been pushed in a bit more. Apparently the gas mask model can be hit.
I wouldn't go as far as to claim that the position is impossible to crack at as you're able to use health-kits and heal up without being hit any more. They weren't aiming for me then, because I never moved once. They shoot me then, they shoot Falcon there, I never moved.
You're far from exposed, and I'd say it's a far cry to claim that it's a doom-fort because of the positioning of the keypad. Even if it was a doomfort at this time it doesn't seem to be intentional because of the remarks made by Theomenz that I've pointed out. It is fish in a barrel, the video showed you. I guess I know now I can make similar bases, especially in IZZIES.
Quote:It appears in the screenshots however though that there is absolutely zero room for cover, not to mention Grub used the DJ platform as a firing platform. I remember hearing that firing platforms of anykind in a base were prohibited from use. I want clarification.
As I've pointed out above, I'd claim that there's cover as you're able to stand by the keypad while healing up without being hit any more. Read above
I don't see the big issue that this shooting-platform is causing, especially considering that the new rules have allowed towers and walkways. Didn't know this, withdraw those arguments.
A keypad cannot be completely exposed, ie so that you have to turn your back to where they are shooting from so they can shoot you in the back whenever you try to crack. In this case, the cracker-position has enough cover and it's not totally exposed. The position offers enough cover that you're able to heal up without taking any more fire. So it was 90% exposed. I died as far into cover as I could crawl into. It's exposed enough to die, and I highly doubt it was tested in the beforehand.
The elevated shooting-position can be easily suppressed and/or molotoved.
I wouldn't call it a doomfort as it's easily countered. The problem is simply that you didn't have enough attackers in the raid, and that's your fault, not the defenders. I was suppressing them, but they had a 90 degree cover on us, plus they had windows that we were unable to look through because it's difficult at range to do so. Molotovs are bugged and have been for over a month at this point, so don't say we should use them if we are unable to.
To sum up my thoughts and notes so far:
The keypad isn't exposed too much, even with the exposed angle that wasn't ment to exist, something that was later countered by pushing the wall further in allowing for more cover.
Even with the exposed angle, you were able to heal up without taking further damage. Again, it's exposed enough to be shot and killed from, so it's exposed enough to me.
The elevated shooting-position is allowed, as towers and walkways are now allowed because of the new rules.
A doomfort is a base that's too hard to raid, a defence that gives the defenders too much of an advantage against the attackers. Is a meat grinder and no reliable cover whatsoever not doomfortish enough?
I'd say that the failure that the attackers experienced was caused by lacking numbers and bad coordination. When the cracker was taking damage, attacker-person-2 could have suppressed the shooter who had the "flanking angle". That's what happened, but when you got 5 hp left you have to hang on for dear life.
The base isn't a doomfort, you were just not prepared enough. Whatever.
In a PM conversation between each-other, you acknowledge that you guys are going up against experienced and skilled shooters.
Spoiler :
I see no direct rule-breakage in the video so far.
The most questionable in the evidence (video) is that the keypad-cracker-person is actually vulnerable while cracking for a short period of time, but it's something that didn't appear to be deliberate and was apparently fixed afterwards.
Quote:Also, I witnessed Grub noclip invisible to his vehicle, then uninvis'd himself, unless of course he walks around his base invisible? I have no screenshot of him obviously before and after, however I want him to admit what he did.I don't see a RP situation going on that wouldn't allow Grub to unphase at that point. I do not know he was flying around the map for a quick check around or what, but from I can tell; he did not use his powers to interrupt a situation on purpose.
I personally do "patrols" around the server every now and then where I'll go phased and quickly check on players. There has been multiple occasions where I've used the "!gotov enzyme" afterwards, and this is just to make it easier to both administrate the server and RP for oneself. This is something I believe other staff-members do aswell. I don't see anything that would suggest this wasn't the case with Grub, but this isn't something that I know for sure.
Sum sum up:
2 players were going against 3 very experienced players who are in a defensive position. You didn't fail the raid because it was a doomfort, but because you were outnumbered and they had better positions than you.
Discussion about this
Spoiler :
Additional note: When replying to each-other, IF your reply or quote contains big pictures or long quotes then please put it in a spoiler so it doesn't take a full page.
This obviously isn't going anywhere from here. I have seen people banned or blacklisted for doing such activities in IZZIES. If it's not in the rules, clarify it.
RE: Grub again - Agorith - 06-09-2015
*User has been warned for this post*
Refrain from commenting unnecessary or unneeded remarks on a serious abuse case thread.
RE: Grub again - General Rickets - 06-09-2015
(06-09-2015, 12:12 PM)Agorith Wrote: "05:58 - CSGO PRO: With all respect due, It's Agorith it was essentially a 2v2."
I was 17/1.. lel.
This is not a who has the bigger dick contest. It is an admin abuse case so treat it accordingly.
RE: Grub again - Agorith - 06-09-2015
(06-09-2015, 12:37 PM)General Rickets Wrote:(06-09-2015, 12:12 PM)Agorith Wrote: "05:58 - CSGO PRO: With all respect due, It's Agorith it was essentially a 2v2."
I was 17/1.. lel.
This is not a who has the bigger *** contest. It is an admin abuse case so treat it accordingly.
I'm simply calling him out on some more bullshit. (Btw, I'd win.)
I'm out, cheerio.